Advice on lighting cube

[frankchester]

Hello All, hopefully this question isn't too silly for me to ask.

 

I recently bought a light tent and two lamps in order to take better pictures of products I make. I work in the day so getting daylight photos is very difficult, and I wanted to take more consistent photographs. I'm struggling a bit with getting it just right though, and am after some advice.

 

First off, I think I made a bit of a mistake with the size of the tent. I went for an 80cm tent without thinking how big it actually is. It's pretty huge. It's good though, as a lot of my products are quite large and need to be laid out flat.

 

 

Problem is, I can't seem to light it correctly. I don't know if it's down to not enough lights, positioning the lights, or I'm just doing something wrong.

 

I only have two daylight lamps which I positioned on the sides of the tent, but I still get a lot of darkness at the back. I'm wondering if I need more lights, another two to light the back? Or one large one to hang over the top? Not really sure how you light something this large!

 

Secondly, for photographing smaller items, do I need a much smaller cube? I'm thinking of purchasing a second 30cm cube and lighting it with the same two lights.

Or is it just that I'm doing something wrong in terms of positioning the lamps, or my settings? Should I be using flash? I tried using my standard camera flash but this either isn't enough, or it gives a very harsh light on the image which is obviously the opposite of what I want.

 

Here is an image I took, which I have heavily edited to try and lighten the background. Not really that great, is it?

 

 

Also, I have a Sony A350 DSLR.

[Guest]

I cant see the settings but  a quick look at the image says yo need to increase you DoF as some of the hat is out of focus. Will you lights reach to point into the tent from above? What settings are you using and have you got the camera on a tripod and are you using a remote or self timer to take the shot?

[Guest DaveW]

The size of the cube should not be a problem. See:-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy60U-FTpSc

 

 The problem may be the predominant white background is fooling your camera meter into underexposing. A camera meter will generally integrate to 18% grey and a normal scene with many different tones does this, but if you photograph say a white sheet of paper or snow without any exposure correction it comes out grey, therefore you have to give more exposure on non standard scenes. The best way is to set the exposure by a standard grey card in the same lighting as the subject. Failing that take a series of exposures at different settings:-

 

http://www.tabletopstudio.com/TTS_Product_Photography_Tips.html

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxJSpxh_r90

 

I would think the same rules for a white background should apply as for flowers in this link

 

http://www.tabletopstudio.com/documents/bouquet_photography.htm#exposure

 

http://www.tabletopstudio.com/HowTo_page.html

[frankchester]

I cant see the settings but  a quick look at the image says yo need to increase you DoF as some of the hat is out of focus. Will you lights reach to point into the tent from above? What settings are you using and have you got the camera on a tripod and are you using a remote or self timer to take the shot?

 

I'll have a play with the DoF, I was more concerned about lighting the subject correctly than getting an in focus shot though, I have to admit. This was more playing around.

I haven't got the camera on a tripod, could do though. Do you think a longer exposure would work better to get more light without a white out?

[frankchester]

I cant see the settings but  a quick look at the image says yo need to increase you DoF as some of the hat is out of focus. Will you lights reach to point into the tent from above? What settings are you using and have you got the camera on a tripod and are you using a remote or self timer to take the shot?

 

Won't let me edit previous post, ugh.

 

The lights themselves aren't tall enough (I have been looking for boom arm type things all morning but they're very very expensive). I could however place a chair or similar behind the cube and then put one of the lights on that, but then that would involve taking away from the sides. Hence my thinking that maybe I need a third light for the top (boom arm or simply stood on a higher surface if I can)

[frankchester]

The size of the cube should not be a problem. See:-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy60U-FTpSc

 

 The problem may be the predominant white background is fooling your camera meter into underexposing. A camera meter will generally integrate to 18% grey and a normal scene with many different tones does this, but if you photograph say a white sheet of paper or snow without any exposure correction it comes out grey, therefore you have to give more exposure on non standard scenes. The best way is to set the exposure by a standard grey card in the same lighting as the subject. Failing that take a series of exposures at different settings:-

 

http://www.tabletopstudio.com/TTS_Product_Photography_Tips.html

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxJSpxh_r90

 

I would think the same rules for a white background should apply as for flowers in this link

 

http://www.tabletopstudio.com/documents/bouquet_photography.htm#exposure

 

http://www.tabletopstudio.com/HowTo_page.html

 

Thanks for the links. I do have a grey card somewhere. I've only done a few photography classes on lighting so it's all pretty new to me.

 

Also my lights are nowhere near as big as the ones in the videos you linked. They are still quite big though, but not enough to light the entire side. Maybe I need more?

[FUJI]

There are usually lots of excellent (and not so excellent) tutorials on all things photographic on YouTube.....it is always worthwhile delving there.

It is here I learn a great deal, as did BP recently about Free-lensing.

FUJI

[Guest DaveW]

Depends if you have any lighting stands or boom arms, if not try EBAY:-

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=photographic+Boom+Arm&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=photographic+lighting+Boom+Arm&_sacat=0

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=photographic+lighting+Boom+Arm&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=photographic+lighting+stands&_sacat=0

 

Have you tried setting exposure compensation though to see if you are just underexposing? Don't know Sony cameras, though Fuji probably does. You may be able to set auto bracketing which automatically takes a few shots at different exposures allowing you to pick the best one:-

 

http://www.flickr.com/groups/sony_a350/discuss/72157622423332548/

 

If you move your lights further away from the cube the light beam will spread and light the entire side. The lighting will be weaker however so exposures longer, therefore you may want your camera on a tripod rather than hand holding, but for this type of photography the camera should really be on a tripod anyway for professional results.

 

http://photo.tutsplus.com/articles/lighting-articles/rules-for-perfect-lighting-understanding-the-inverse-square-law/

 

http://www.tiffen.com/tripod_why_buy.html

[frankchester]

Depends if you have any lighting stands or boom arms, if not try EBAY:-

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=photographic+Boom+Arm&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=photographic+lighting+Boom+Arm&_sacat=0

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=photographic+lighting+Boom+Arm&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=photographic+lighting+stands&_sacat=0

 

Have you tried setting exposure compensation though to see if you are just underexposing? Don't know Sony cameras, though Fuji probably does. You may be able to set auto bracketing which automatically takes a few shots at different exposures allowing you to pick the best one:-

 

http://www.flickr.com/groups/sony_a350/discuss/72157622423332548/

 

If you move your lights further away from the cube the light beam will spread and light the entire side. The lighting will be weaker however so exposures longer, therefore you may want your camera on a tripod rather than hand holding, but for this type of photography the camera should really be on a tripod anyway for professional results.

 

http://photo.tutsplus.com/articles/lighting-articles/rules-for-perfect-lighting-understanding-the-inverse-square-law/

 

http://www.tiffen.com/tripod_why_buy.html

 

Thanks, I haven't got a boom arm, they seem very expensive, I can't really justify spending more on another light if I can avoid it (and I can't find a boom for under £20 which would be my max sadly!)

 

I played a lot with the exposure but I will try and see what else I can get. 

[Guest]

if you cant get the light in from above the tent get it in from as high up the sides as you can pointing at the subject through the tent. If you cant add more light then add a tripod and use a long exposure, you may need to play with the white balance either in the camera or in the edit afterwards to get the exact tones. I do some of my product shots in a tent and some outside of the tent using a back drop. All the tent is doing is acting as a combined back drop and light diffuser if you can do both of these another way you can exclude the tent

[frankchester]

if you cant get the light in from above the tent get it in from as high up the sides as you can pointing at the subject through the tent. If you cant add more light then add a tripod and use a long exposure, you may need to play with the white balance either in the camera or in the edit afterwards to get the exact tones. I do some of my product shots in a tent and some outside of the tent using a back drop. All the tent is doing is acting as a combined back drop and light diffuser if you can do both of these another way you can exclude the tent

 

Thanks, I'll look into a third light but the expense is too much at the mo. I have a tripod, so I'll try with the longer exposure and see how that goes first.

[Guest DaveW]

You may find these articles helpful:-

 

http://pareandfocus.com/index.htm/how-to-use-a-lightbox/

 

http://www.pixiq.com/article/the-use-and-abuse-of-light-tents

 

http://www.turningwood.com/HOW_TOO/Lighting%20tricks%20using%20a%20photo%20box.pdf

 

http://andypiper.co.uk/2008/12/22/the-light-tent-and-understanding-white-balance/

 

As with all photography it's just a case of varying things until you get the results you want, but only vary one thing at once or you will get confused as to what you did right or wrong. You can almost take pictures of black cats in coal cellars given a long enough exposure and the camera on a tripod so your lights should be bright enough even if you have to move them further away from the light cube so their beam covers the whole side. If you don't have a light stand to get the lamp where you want it a bit of creative DIY may be needed.

 

http://www.steves-digicams.com/news/diy_need_cheap_light_stands_use_a_stick_in_a_can.html

 

http://www.ehow.co.uk/way_5844796_diy-booms-stands-lighting.html

[frankchester]

You may find these articles helpful:-

 

http://pareandfocus.com/index.htm/how-to-use-a-lightbox/

 

http://www.pixiq.com/article/the-use-and-abuse-of-light-tents

 

http://www.turningwood.com/HOW_TOO/Lighting%20tricks%20using%20a%20photo%20box.pdf

 

http://andypiper.co.uk/2008/12/22/the-light-tent-and-understanding-white-balance/

 

As with all photography it's just a case of varying things until you get the results you want, but only vary one thing at once or you will get confused as to what you did right or wrong. You can almost take pictures of black cats in coal cellars given a long enough exposure and the camera on a tripod so your lights should be bright enough even if you have to move them further away from the light cube so their beam covers the whole side. If you don't have a light stand to get the lamp where you want it a bit of creative DIY may be needed.

 

http://www.steves-digicams.com/news/diy_need_cheap_light_stands_use_a_stick_in_a_can.html

 

http://www.ehow.co.uk/way_5844796_diy-booms-stands-lighting.html

 

I've been searching everywhere for a cheap alternative to the lights. The bulbs (5500k) can be picked up quite cheaply on eBay, but it's the arms/stands that are the expensive part. I've been trying to find a standard lamp, like an IKEA clip one that would take a 135w bulb but obviously none do. 

 

I'm wondering if I can try to be "cheap" by getting a standard "clip on" lamp, and getting an appropriate daylight lamp and making some sort of clip on broom handle contraption with some duct tape! Ha! Lets see.

[Guest DaveW]

Really Frank the colour temperature of the lamp is not too important since that can be adjusted for by white balance in the camera. The only problem you might have with lights is conventional fluorescent tubes as they are not full spectrum (don't have all the colours that make up white light) so are difficult to correct for.  However don't mix types of lights since you can't correct for more than one colour temperature in the same shot.  Even household bulbs will do, a wander around the local DIY stores might turn up some suitable lamps, both clip on and free standing.  I still cannot see why your present lights cannot be made to work though?

 

In the old days with film cameras you used to have to use correction filters over the lens for light of a different colour temperature to what the film was corrected for, but with digital you simply adjust the cameras white balance colour temperature settings to suit.

 

http://www.apogeephoto.com/july2004/jaltengarten7_2004.shtml

 

My old Photoflood bulbs are Edison screw base, but don't know if new ones still are, but evidently you can get adapters from bayonet to Edison Screw:-

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=Desk+lamps&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=edison+screw+lamps&_sacat=0

 

Evidently Amazon do some cheap lighting stands, but of course you need heads for them as well or at least clip on lights:-

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=332195031

 

I have in the past in a night school course even used cheap halogen floodlights for photography in the old film days and most of the larger DIY stores stock them, often with a clip on attachment:-

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=clip+on+Halogen+lights&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=+Halogen+flood+lights&_sacat=0

Edited April 24, 2013 by DaveW

[frankchester]

Really Frank the colour temperature of the lamp is not too important since that can be adjusted for by white balance in the camera. The only problem you might have with lights is conventional fluorescent tubes as they are not full spectrum (don't have all the colours that make up white light) so are difficult to correct for.  However don't mix types of lights since you can't correct for more than one colour temperature in the same shot.  Even household bulbs will do, a wander around the local DIY stores might turn up some suitable lamps, both clip on and free standing.  I still cannot see why your present lights cannot be made to work though?

 

In the old days with film cameras you used to have to use correction filters over the lens for light of a different colour temperature to what the film was corrected for, but with digital you simply adjust the cameras white balance colour temperature settings to suit.

 

http://www.apogeephoto.com/july2004/jaltengarten7_2004.shtml

 

My old Photoflood bulbs are Edison screw base, but don't know if new ones still are, but evidently you can get adapters from bayonet to Edison Screw:-

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=Desk+lamps&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=edison+screw+lamps&_sacat=0

 

Evidently Amazon do some cheap lighting stands, but of course you need heads for them as well or at least clip on lights:-

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=332195031

 

I have in the past in a night school course even used cheap halogen floodlights for photography in the old film days and most of the larger DIY stores stock them, often with a clip on attachment:-

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=clip+on+Halogen+lights&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=+Halogen+flood+lights&_sacat=0

 

The thing is I already have two 5500k lights but they're not enough. I can't afford a third boom light stand (way too expensive wherever I look). So my thinking was to get a clip lamp and another bulb to make up the third light (then worry about how to make it hang over the tent later, less of a problem really. I'm thinking broom handles!

[frankchester]

Really Frank the colour temperature of the lamp is not too important since that can be adjusted for by white balance in the camera. The only problem you might have with lights is conventional fluorescent tubes as they are not full spectrum (don't have all the colours that make up white light) so are difficult to correct for.  However don't mix types of lights since you can't correct for more than one colour temperature in the same shot.  Even household bulbs will do, a wander around the local DIY stores might turn up some suitable lamps, both clip on and free standing.  I still cannot see why your present lights cannot be made to work though?

 

In the old days with film cameras you used to have to use correction filters over the lens for light of a different colour temperature to what the film was corrected for, but with digital you simply adjust the cameras white balance colour temperature settings to suit.

 

http://www.apogeephoto.com/july2004/jaltengarten7_2004.shtml

 

My old Photoflood bulbs are Edison screw base, but don't know if new ones still are, but evidently you can get adapters from bayonet to Edison Screw:-

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=Desk+lamps&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=edison+screw+lamps&_sacat=0

 

Evidently Amazon do some cheap lighting stands, but of course you need heads for them as well or at least clip on lights:-

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=332195031

 

I have in the past in a night school course even used cheap halogen floodlights for photography in the old film days and most of the larger DIY stores stock them, often with a clip on attachment:-

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=clip+on+Halogen+lights&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=+Halogen+flood+lights&_sacat=0

 

Secondly (sorry, I can't edit posts?!)...

 

The two lights don't seem to work as they're just not strong enough, or something. Clearly as you can see from the pics it's not working too well. I have the lights on the sides of the cube but the background is still dark. This makes me think I need a third light to light this size of cube...

[Guest DaveW]

The closer you get your lights to the subject the greater will be the fall off in light to the background, it is the inverse square law in operation. The further the lights are away from the subject (the light cube) conversely the smaller the difference in light intensity between subject and background, but the exposure time will be a lot longer.

See the part on lighting groups and backgrounds in this link:-

http://photo.tutsplus.com/articles/lighting-articles/rules-for-perfect-lighting-understanding-the-inverse-square-law/

It might seem counter intuitive that moving the lights further away, whilst producing dimmer lighting, also provides more even lighting for subjects and backgrounds, but as you can see this video illustrates the point. Of course for close up work with your cube you are not moving the lights more than a few feet away, certainly not the 15ft for portraits in the video:-

However you pay for more even lighting by needing longer exposures since you still need smaller apertures for depth of field and that means a camera on a tripod is essential since shutter speeds would be too low for hand holding. Try moving your lights a bit further away from the sides of the cube and see if the background brightens up compared to the subject and if it does just keep moving them back until you get the result you want. In your case you are not moving the subject nearer to the background, but the lights further away from the cube to produce less light fall off between subject and background.

Edited April 24, 2013 by DaveW

[frankchester]

The closer you get your lights to the subject the greater will be the fall off in light to the background, it is the inverse square law in operation. The further the lights are away from the subject (the light cube) conversely the smaller the difference in light intensity between subject and background, but the exposure time will be a lot longer.

See the part on lighting groups and backgrounds in this link:-

http://photo.tutsplus.com/articles/lighting-articles/rules-for-perfect-lighting-understanding-the-inverse-square-law/

It might seem counter intuitive that moving the lights further away, whilst producing dimmer lighting, also provides more even lighting for subjects and backgrounds, but as you can see this video illustrates the point. Of course for close up work with your cube you are not moving the lights more than a few feet away, certainly not the 15ft for portraits in the video:-

However you pay for more even lighting by needing longer exposures since you still need smaller apertures for depth of field and that means a camera on a tripod is essential since shutter speeds would be too low for hand holding. Try moving your lights a bit further away from the sides of the cube and see if the background brightens up compared to the subject and if it does just keep moving them back until you get the result you want. In your case you are not moving the subject nearer to the background, but the lights further away from the cube to produce less light fall off between subject and background.

 

Thanks, I'll try this. Just ordered a mini tripod as mine is a bit too big!

[frankchester]

I am still really struggling to get good photos. It's so frustrating.

 

I spent 6 hours last weekend trying to get good photographs and they are all just terrible.

 

I moved the lights further away which did help, and used a tripod and a longer exposure but I am still struggling to get bright, good looking photographs. 

 

I also took some photos outside of the lightcube, just against the cream wall in my flat. As you can see, they look terrible. This was after considerable editing.

 

 

This is the kind of photograph I am keen to achieve, can anyone work out how this was done? What kind of lighting set up? Is two lights not enough? Maybe it's my camera? I was using my kit lense as that's all I have

 

[frankchester]

Debating purchasing more lights, but this is obviously very costly, not to mention the extra space it will take up! What do you think? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-arrival-Photo-Studio-Light-Kit-SoftBox-Boom-Arm-Stand-with-4-x-115w-bulbs-/330876497573?pt=UK_Photography_Lighting_Kits&hash=item4d09c6aea5

[Guest DaveW]

You cannot always rely on the light meter for best exposure, just use exposure compensation and give longer exposures until you get the background white. Some here on photographing white on white:-

 

http://www.learnmyshot.com/How+to+photograph+White+Still+Life+on+White+Background

 

Also white backgrounds:-

 

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Photographing-products-with-a-pure-white-background/10000000001921152/g.html

 

http://sellercentre.ebay.co.uk/sites/default/files/ebay_photo_guide_1.pdf

 

http://www.alzodigital.com/photo_guide/tent_application_guide_white_background.htm

 

Another method is in post processing:-

 

http://tabletopstudio.com/white_backgrounds.html

 

http://ambette.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/tutorial-correcting-white-backgrounds.html

 

Why do you want to photograph white on white though? I would have thought the white dummy would have looked better on a grey or slightly coloured background and produce more separation from it?

 

In the EBAY link above it says:-

 

"Shoot against a plain backdrop (white for coloured items; solid dark colour for white items)."

 

It may help if you stop down a bit to get greater depth of field also:-

 

http://the-creativity-window.com/2012/06/key-elements-of-product-photography/

 

Keep going you are getting there!

[frankchester]

You cannot always rely on the light meter for best exposure, just use exposure compensation and give longer exposures until you get the background white. Some here on photographing white on white:-

 

http://www.learnmyshot.com/How+to+photograph+White+Still+Life+on+White+Background

 

Also white backgrounds:-

 

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Photographing-products-with-a-pure-white-background/10000000001921152/g.html

 

http://sellercentre.ebay.co.uk/sites/default/files/ebay_photo_guide_1.pdf

 

http://www.alzodigital.com/photo_guide/tent_application_guide_white_background.htm

 

Another method is in post processing:-

 

http://tabletopstudio.com/white_backgrounds.html

 

http://ambette.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/tutorial-correcting-white-backgrounds.html

 

Why do you want to photograph white on white though? I would have thought the white dummy would have looked better on a grey or slightly coloured background and produce more separation from it?

 

In the EBAY link above it says:-

 

"Shoot against a plain backdrop (white for coloured items; solid dark colour for white items)."

 

It may help if you stop down a bit to get greater depth of field also:-

 

http://the-creativity-window.com/2012/06/key-elements-of-product-photography/

 

Keep going you are getting there!

 

The colour of the mannequin isn't important. If the mannequin doesn't have high contrast with the background that's fine. It's the item on it I'm trying to represent.

[frankchester]

You cannot always rely on the light meter for best exposure, just use exposure compensation and give longer exposures until you get the background white. Some here on photographing white on white:-

 

http://www.learnmyshot.com/How+to+photograph+White+Still+Life+on+White+Background

 

Also white backgrounds:-

 

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Photographing-products-with-a-pure-white-background/10000000001921152/g.html

 

http://sellercentre.ebay.co.uk/sites/default/files/ebay_photo_guide_1.pdf

 

http://www.alzodigital.com/photo_guide/tent_application_guide_white_background.htm

 

Another method is in post processing:-

 

http://tabletopstudio.com/white_backgrounds.html

 

http://ambette.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/tutorial-correcting-white-backgrounds.html

 

Why do you want to photograph white on white though? I would have thought the white dummy would have looked better on a grey or slightly coloured background and produce more separation from it?

 

In the EBAY link above it says:-

 

"Shoot against a plain backdrop (white for coloured items; solid dark colour for white items)."

 

It may help if you stop down a bit to get greater depth of field also:-

 

http://the-creativity-window.com/2012/06/key-elements-of-product-photography/

 

Keep going you are getting there!

 

Thanks for the links though. I have read everything I can yet my pictures still do not work

 

Also, does anyone know how to edit posts? It is really frustrating.

[Guest]

you cant edit posts until you have made at least 30 posts I think it is.
 
is this what you are after?

 

[Guest DaveW]

As said earlier I think a bright white background detracts from the subject. This is what I meant by a grey or tinted background behind the subject just using the paint bucket in post processing on Richard's shot and just sharpening a little as I think it gives more of a 3D effect?. A little bit of a colour bleed on the right but it was just quickly done to show what I meant and that could be tidied in post processing.